The Data Canteen: Episode 08
Katie Keller: Cleared Data Science
In this episode, I'm joined by Katie Keller who is the Editorial Communications Manager for ClearanceJobs. Katie shares generously from her wealth of knowledge and experience to help you land your next great opportunity in cleared data science or machine learning! We chat about the trajectory of cleared data science salaries in 2021, your best bets for making it past applicant tracking systems, and she answers each of your most common questions about the hiring process!
FEATURED GUEST:
Name: Katie Keller
Email: katie.keller@clearancejobs.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katie-e-keller/
About: Katie has a background in technical, intelligence and special operations recruiting for the Intelligence Community (IC) and Department of Defense (DoD). This includes past experiences supporting multiple government contractors throughout the DMV area, with a brief stint in the tech start-up world. At ClearanceJobs, Katie hosts the ClearedCast podcast, manages all communications with external parties/internal stakeholders, moderates the ClearanceJobs Blog, and is a contributor at news.clearancejobs.com.
SUPPORT THE DATA CANTEEN (LIKE PBS, WE'RE LISTENER SUPPORTED!):
Donate: https://vetsindatascience.com/support-join
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EPISODE LINKS:
Security Clearance News and Career Advice: https://news.clearancejobs.com/
ClearedCast (podcast): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/security-clearance-careers-podcast/id1039825235
ClearanceJobs 2021 Security Clearance Compensation Report: https://about.clearancejobs.com/employers/recruiting-resources/2021-compensation-survey
Cleared Salary Calculator: https://about.clearancejobs.com/salary-calculator
Security Clearance Horror Stories with Industry Expert (video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j5R3NdFwGU
Recruiter Burns to Avoid Stoking Through the Job Seeking Process (article): https://tinyurl.com/4sthmauc
Cleared Recruiting Horror Stories in Defense Hiring (article): https://tinyurl.com/2b5y2uz
From The Green Notebook (podcast): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/from-the-green-notebook/id1537731886
The Employment Line (podcast): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-employment-line/id1483159155
War on the Rocks (podcast): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/war-on-the-rocks/id682478916
PODCAST INFO:
Host: Ted Hallum
Website: https://vetsindatascience.com/thedatacanteen
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-data-canteen/id1551751086
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaNx9aLFRy1h9P22hd8ZPyw
Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-data-canteen
CONTACT THE DATA CANTEEN:
Voicemail: https://www.speakpipe.com/datacanteen
VETERANS IN DATA SCIENCE AND MACHINE LEARNING:
Website: https://vetsindatascience.com/
Join the Community: https://vetsindatascience.com/support-join
About: Veterans in Data Science and Machine Learning (VDSML) is a valuable and supportive community for current and aspiring data professionals with U.S. Military experience. Our aim is to further the careers of fellow veterans through intentional sharing of collective knowledge and experience.
OUTLINE:
00:00:07 - Introduction
00:01:42 - What is ClearanceJobs?
00:04:34 - The 2021 Security Clearance Compensation Report
00:10:05 - Geographic hotspots for cleared data science and machine learning
00:13:43 - Qualifications that will empower you to command a higher salary
00:15:55 - Katie's background as a cleared technical recruiter (to include recruiting for DS & ML roles)
00:18:32 - How difficult is it right now to recruit cleared data scientists and machine learning engineers?
00:20:32 - How is the demand for cleared data scientists and machine learning engineers growing?
00:22:34 - Indicators Katie looked for in promising DS & ML job candidates & their resumes
00:30:59 - Navigating applicant tracking systems
00:35:55 - Should your resume have a cover letter?
00:36:23 - The seven deadly sins to avoid when interacting with recruiters
00:42:56 - Cleared recruiting horror stories
00:45:31 - Answers to all of your most common questions about the hiring process
00:49:46 - Katie's top podcast recommendations
00:53:56 - Preferred methods to contact Katie
Transcript
DISCLAIMER: This is a direct, machine-generated transcript of the podcast audio and may not be grammatically correct.
Ted Hallum: [00:00:07] Welcome to episode eight of The Data Canteen, a podcast focused on the care and feeding of data scientists and machine learning engineers who share in the common bond of U.S. Military Service. I'm your host, Ted Hallum. Today, I'm joined by Katie Keller. Katie is the editorial communications manager for ClearanceJobs.
She has many years of experience helping connect cleared military veterans with great opportunities to include data science and machine learning roles. Many thanks to Katie who shares generously from her wealth of knowledge and experience to help you land your next great opportunity in cleared data science.
In this episode, you'll hear about the trajectory of cleared data science salaries in 2021, the factors that most influence who gets offered a full interview - and who doesn't, what recruiters are really looking for in your online profiles, your best bets for making it past applicant tracking systems, best practices for interacting with recruiters, and, finally, she'll answer each of your most common questions about the hiring process in just one word.
I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did!
Katie. Thank you so much for coming on to the data canteen!
Katie Keller: [00:01:12] Yes. So happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Ted Hallum: [00:01:16] So I got inspired to get into podcasting by coming on your show.
And so now I'm super stoked that we get to have you come on and talk about every, all the insight that you have specific to clear jobs. And we're going to get into clear data science and machine learning jobs. But what people may not know if they're not familiar is that you fill a key role at clearancejobs.com.
And I don't know if all of our listeners in the, veterans and data science machine learning community are necessarily familiar. So if you could just kick it off by telling us a little bit about clearance jobs,
Katie Keller: [00:01:52] Absolutely. And I'm so flattered that you were inspired to make a podcast just from joining me.
Thanks again for having me. So Clarence jobs is the largest career marketplace for defense contractors, federal agencies and then cleared personnel that are working in the DOD or the IC. So basically as a candidate, you have to have an active security clearance.
But for employers, we serve as a place where you can network with those cleared candidates. You can search through our resume database. We actually have a little over 1.2 million registered candidates, which I have to put that plug in there. But it's unlike. Social platforms on the open source.
We are a secure place with veteran employers that you can network and know that you're safe because obviously open source is a target for adversaries looking for cleared candidates. But specific specifically for me on the editorial team, we provide a place to highlight those employers.
We offer career advice, military transition tips sourcing and recruiting tactics, which I like to Ben about because I'm a former recruiter. We also do security clearance policy updates and that's all@newsdotclearancejobs.com, but basically just offering resources for anybody in the cleared community is what clearance jobs.com does.
Ted Hallum: [00:03:23] That's awesome. Now I have been taking advantage of clearancejobs.com for years. It's been a key resource for me. If you're in the environment where you are leveraging a clearance now of course you could be on the government side, but my experience has usually been on the contracting side and anybody that does government contracting knows that you can love your job.
You could be doing your dream job. And the contract lasts three to five years. And then who knows, maybe the recompete gets rewarded to your company and you get another three to five years, or maybe the recompete goes to a new company. And then the whole Apple cart gets upset. And so I went through that a number of times, and I just found clearance jobs to be an invaluable resource to help find new employment, secure new employment.
It was just, I don't know where I would have been without it. So I'm very happy that we can highlight clearance jobs here on this episode. Cause I know there are people in our veterans in data science and machine learning community that , especially this past year with COVID have had gaps in employment.
Some of those gaps are still ongoing. So this might be a resource that could help them get to their next opportunity. Absolutely. Now I think I saw recently each I think it's each year clearance jobs comes out with an annual compensation report. Is that
Katie Keller: [00:04:52] yes, that's correct. So that's actually our biggest offering.
It is, and I do have to throw in another plug Jillian Hamilton, who is our editor at newsdotclearancejobs.com. She completely managed that project and it's a big undertaking it's around 45,000 respondents or sample size that we work with. But basically we go into compensation by jobs, state agency, whether you have a polygraph or not your job satisfaction so many other really great nuggets that both candidates and recruiters could benefit from.
Really whether you're projecting, like where, what. You want to do within the your next gig and the DOD, or if you need incentives as a recruiter to like try to bring in candidates.
So I really encourage everybody to download it for sure.
Ted Hallum: [00:05:52] Well, for anybody who's watching the video version of this podcast, we've got on the screen, the URL, but I'll go ahead and read it off for anybody that might just be getting the audio through iTunes or whatever. It's HTTPS colon slash www.clearancejobs.com.
And I haven't checked, but I would assume it is the annual compensation report. Link there on the main page or how would they get to that?
Katie Keller: [00:06:20] Yeah. So if you go to news.clearancejobs.com, you can search the 2021 compensation report and you'll be able to download it from there easily.
Ted Hallum: [00:06:31] Okay, perfect.
So Katie, you probably know where my mind's going. You've told us about this compensation report. Obviously this podcast is focused on veterans and data science and machine learning. So I want to know what does the compensation report say? The li the outlook is for future compensation and well, current compensation and future compensation for the data science field within the scope of the cleared community.
Katie Keller: [00:07:01] Absolutely. So speaking from a general bird's-eye view of data science within security clearance, careers compensation sat at just about. $121k, which was a 4% increase from the year before. So I say general because that encompasses like different States different clearance levels, education levels et cetera.
So if that number seems a little crazy low or way higher than what your current salary is as a data scientist you'll obviously need to consider other factors that go into compensation.
Ted Hallum: [00:07:45] Absolutely. Now, I think you said that's up 4% this year, from last year, correct?
Katie Keller: [00:07:49] Yeah, that's true.
Ted Hallum: [00:07:51] So that's, I mean, that's pretty good growth now.
How does that trajectory compare to what other roles that people have in the cleared community
Katie Keller: [00:08:02] mean? Data scientists, what is it 10 years now? Really we heard those buzz words. But certainly there's a demand for more people to get involved in data science. I know that some professional sites listed data scientist as the number one job in the U S for 2020 .
So one thing I'll say is the national security commission on AI recommended that we should reach billions of dollars in R and D efforts in the IC and the DOD. And they should really streamline their efforts and AI proficiency, which obviously has a lot to do with data science. So I think that the government is making more of a priority of data or relying more on data.
And that's certainly something that I've seen in my talks with people
Ted Hallum: [00:08:56] in the government. Well, I think that's great news for everyone listening to this show. that dovetails with my intuition. That's kind of how I feel from The seat of my pants as I'm flying through my everyday career and work, but I don't have that 15,000 foot altitude perspective that you have.
I feel like you really get to keep a pulse on where things are by virtue of your position there at clearance jobs. So I'm glad that you could confirm that for me, and then maybe confirm that for listeners or give them an even More positive outlook than what they might've had about data science.
If they're in the clear community now, I don't know how granular the data is. It sounded pretty granular for clearance jobs, annual compensation report. But I'm curious, as far as you mentioned all the various other factors that, that go into how much a person makes in a given role, obviously I think geography is probably one of the biggest, if not the biggest factor that impacts how much a certain role can command salary wise.
So that left me wondering for data science and machine learning. Does your data indicated there are any particular geographical hotspots where people should maybe be willing to move if they're, if they are mobile in order to get the best salary that they can get as a data scientist?
Katie Keller: [00:10:24] Sure. I mean, I don't know how much COVID-19 is actually going to change this, especially since.
National security, we're relying a little bit more on the open source. So I feel like a lot more people are going to be working remotely. But for security, Clarence careers in general, from our compensation report I'm not sure that we haven't included in or report specifically for data science, but certainly the DMV area is a hiring hotspot.
Everybody knows that. And that's also where the highest compensation is, but a few other States that I'll mention, I mean, California, which you think Silicon Valley, but also a very high paying area for security clearance careers Nevada, Hawaii. But I mean, obviously cost of living there is a little bit higher, so that's why they're paid for Colorado, New York and Massachusetts close to MIT.
So those are a few of the hiring hotspots in general data science would obviously be included in that. But yeah, so, I mean, again, DC is an obvious. Hiring hotspot for data science, but I think COVID-19 may change a little bit kind of where we're at looking at it in the next year to come.
Ted Hallum: [00:11:49] Okay.
Yeah. That makes sense. Now you mentioned cost of living and of course that's, obviously in most cases, what drives pay up for certain geographic areas. I'm wondering, have you perhaps noticed any geographic areas where where candidates who are looking and willing to move? Mike can make money in the margins, like in the sense that area pays more, but the cost of living isn't terrible.
So maybe it represents more actual profit for them as opposed to going to another area where maybe the Raul salary is higher, but the cost of living just eats it all up.
Katie Keller: [00:12:29] Yeah, no, I mean, I feel like every candidate is looking for that. Oh, one thing I'll say is Ohio. A lot of candidates aren't willing to move there, but I know that a lot of employers were looking for clear data scientists included in those areas and they pay a little bit more, but the cost of living in certain areas like Beaver Creek, Ohio is not very high.
So that's certainly a location, but I mean, Charlottesville even. I mean, I remember Ted, I was trying to recruit you for a data scientist role here. The clear candidate pool is so freaking low, but I mean that's because people are happy in their current role or I mean, I don't know the cost of living here is not very high.
It's certainly growing a little bit. But it's nothing like
Ted Hallum: [00:13:23] DC. Right. No, absolutely not for sure. Cool. So some hot tips, Beaver Creek, Ohio, Charlottesville, Virginia. If you're looking for places where maybe you can make a little bit more money and not have all that be taken right back from you and housing and food and gasoline costs, those are two spots to check into.
All right. So a couple of other facets of your data that I'm interested in. A lot of times, I think when people and this, question is really I, have the current or soon to be military transitioner in mind when I asked this question. So I think a lot of times they maybe hear the term data science or machine learning and they think, Oh, I have to have a PhD to be competitive.
According to your data, what levels of education or what credentials do people really need to be competitive for data science roles or I'd also be interested to know, is there a certain level of credentialing that makes them all of a sudden it's like tips the scales and they can get a much higher salary?
Katie Keller: [00:14:34] Sure. I mean, so jumping from a secret clearance to a Ts absolutely is a tipping point. You're going to make a little bit more money if you have a top secret with sci access, as opposed to a secret. But another tipping point, at least in my experience of recruiting is when somebody hits that five-year Mark of experience.
I know that for folks that are just getting into data science, it's pretty hard to, I mean, if you have a contract that requires three years of experience and you don't have that, I mean, obviously it's very hard to get that job, but I think even just doing things in your free time, having projects that you're doing some Python, scripting, I mean, Even highlighting those in your application is that's what would tell me that somebody who was really motivated in data science I mean, even you, for example, Ted, you transitioned from an intelligence analyst, data science person, which was kind of unheard of at the time.
I feel like not to talk you up. I don't know if that makes you uncomfortable, but I mean, seeing somebody where they transitioned from a career, but they did that through their schooling, or they did that through their free time. I mean, that was really a tipping point for me where obviously they were motivated to get into the field.
Ted Hallum: [00:15:55] So Katie, we've covered a whole lot about clearance jobs and the different services that people can go and take advantage of@clearancejobs.com. But I want to take a step back because I happen to know that before you were at clearance jobs, you had actually quite a long history of helping veterans find cleared employment.
And so I just want to hear a bit about your background helping pair up veterans with great opportunities.
Katie Keller: [00:16:24] Sure. So a huge soft spot in my heart. But if you would've asked me when I was going through high school, what field I would be working in I'm not sure that I would say national security but I, started in the field working for a small contractor and I really just fell in love with the entire operation.
The thrill of proposal efforts, celebrating when you won submitting to those RFPs. But most of all, what really spoke to me was just developing my network and connections with folks that were transitioning out of the military. Selfishly, I, it just felt good to be a resource for those folks.
I really loved helping veterans and it was actually a really great way to recruit people. So you counsel transitioning vets on their resume answering questions that they have. Instead of being a cutthroat recruiter where somebody is transitioning out like a year from their ETS date and a recruiter is like, okay, bye.
Instead actually helping someone and they would tell their unit or whatever shop they were working in about you. And it, really just made recruiting pretty easy. But again, veterans have such a soft place in my heart and that's really what has kept me exercising, passionate about what I do today.
Ted Hallum: [00:17:58] Well, I know you're genuine when you say that, because you mentioned earlier that I used to be on the intelligence side of the house and you helped me find employment in an intelligence role. And then later on we almost made it work out for a data science role. So as we look at data science, it's such a quickly changing field But I know, even though you're not actively recruiting anymore and you're at clearance jobs, you keep a pulse on the current environment, through your vast network of recruiters that you've known over the years.
So I'm curious to know from what you hear with your ear to the ground, how difficult is it in the cleared community for recruiters to source the right talent for these data science and machine learning roles? Is it incredibly difficult or just kind of difficult, whereas what's the current state of things?
Katie Keller: [00:18:49] Well, I'm going to say incredibly difficult, but it really depends on location. I mean I, remember trying to poach you for that contract in Charlottesville. It was a clear data science role. The candidate pool was so slim literally to none. Either folks were really happy in their current role or they didn't want to have anything to do with clearance career it was department of army, but I mean, it'll probably tell you what the trends are.
I know that I still see companies advertising for that same role on that same contract. But in other locations or national security hubs, it's a little bit different than Charlottesville. But I'll still say it's tough for the government to compete with Silicon Valley or tech companies in the commercial sector for candidates specifically, I mean, relating to marijuana and like state-by-state legality.
I know that's kind of been an issue as well.
Ted Hallum: [00:19:58] Okay. So I know on a personal level, like, as you mentioned when, I've made my transition from Intel to data science, you said from your perspective, you didn't know anyone else who did that. I can tell you from my perspective, I was trying to find a template to follow and.
I'd never, I didn't find one. That's part of my passion for the veterans and data science machine learning community is I feel like there are enough of us out there across the breadth of the country, that if someone's looking for a template to make that transition, they shouldn't be left feeling like they're fumbling around in the dark.
Like there are people like me that can help them. But yeah, back in early 2018, I didn't know anybody who had in my physical realm or even on LinkedIn who had made that, that leap. Now I know people. And so that gives me the sense that the supply for these roles is increasing from what it was. What I don't have a feel for is, the demand growing at the same rate as of the supply? Or is it going to be such that supplies going up demands kind of staying the same. So maybe these may, maybe that 4% growth that we saw in the compensation report this year might not continue to be 4% into the next two, three, four years.
Katie Keller: [00:21:14] Yeah. I mean, personally, I think it's maybe not exponentially, but I think it's certainly going to grow. And I mentioned COVID-19, I think offering clear data scientists, the option to work remotely more. Because of the pandemic could potentially help with that. And since the security clearance backlog is down, then so much more down than it was a couple years back.
Maybe companies will be more in a position to be willing to sponsor the federal government pays for it. But I know that company is waiting on sponsoring that clearance and leaving ability bacon is what the issue is. But I think for the next generation coming up into the ranks were who are going to these data science programs, which are now programs at universities.
I think it is going to grow quite a bit.
Ted Hallum: [00:22:15] Okay. So that's cool. So it sounds like even though supply may be going up demand is going up at the same rate or maybe more so there's still gonna be plenty of opportunities. That's good news. Awesome.
So, Katie, I know that you obviously are in the talent acquisition business.
You yourself have never been a data scientist or machine learning engineer yet one of your key roles was to find data scientists and machine learning engineers who could deliver on the job. So I'm curious, and I think our listeners would be very curious to know from your perspective, as you're doing a phone screen with a candidate, what are some key earmark characteristics that you would look for that would tell you that candidate is someone you think could deliver on the job and would, and deserve to proceed through the hiring process?
Katie Keller: [00:23:08] Sure.
When a candidate would explain sort of where they fit in with the team or where their cog was in the entire team machine. So like with your background, Ted I, think candidates explaining where they were. So you were an intelligence analyst talking about where there, where they were at now.
You went through some schooling, you got a master's in data science. So talking about that academic or formal training again, maybe projects that they worked on the side or in their free time. But really that's what sold me. Just being able to see the full picture of where someone was at sort of in the
entire machine.
Ted Hallum: [00:23:57] Very cool. Now I noticed you mentioned projects that people had done. So we'll talk about that a little bit more later on.
I am curious as people go through the hiring process, there are obviously those who make it all the way to the final interview and then they get extended a job offer. And there are those who get to the phone screen and maybe that's kind of the end of the road for them. So for those maybe not necessarily those that actually get hired, but the ones that at least get offered a full interview is there any particular common factors that generally separate that group of the ones who actually get a full on interview and might get a job offer from those that don't make it that far?
Katie Keller: [00:24:43] Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, in the field that I've been working in, obviously having an active security clearance is you're either in or out. But really what I love would love to talk about here is just being nice. Some people are introverts, some knots but not being able to function on a team with certain personalities is certainly a deal breaker.
Even if a client liaison isn't really in the job title, at some point, you're going to be interacting with someone who. Just won't accept a rude attitude. So just being nice and being polite you'd be so surprised at the amount of candidates who I've interviewed, who are just not nice people, which is unfortunate.
But again, even if client liaison isn't in your job title, you're going to be interacting with somebody who is not going to appreciate someone being rude. So, I mean, that would be my biggest point there. I can vent about that for hours.
Ted Hallum: [00:25:54] Yeah, absolutely. You can't place too much of a premium on being a decent human being and giving everyone that you interact with, especially professionally that base level respect that you're dealing with another human being who likes to be spoken to, and they like to have professional correspondence and email, everything should be on a professional level and at least show that you're extending dignity to that person. And you, recognize that this is not a machine on the other end of the line.
This is a real person who has feelings and has to go home and, contemplate about how their day went and their drive home. And the last thing they want to be thinking about while they're in traffic is the horrible conversation. They had 45 minutes ago. The candidate that didn't appreciate you taking the time to speak with them.
So, yeah, absolutely.
Katie Keller: [00:26:47] It's funny. I mean, I don't know, people expect this like stereotypical, like technical person to be, Oh, they're just an introvert, but. They don't have to be mean. They don't have to be rude. I, we need to break that stigma that that every technical person is this, just this introvert that's super blunt and rude.
And doesn't like people that's not always true. And it's not an excuse in my opinion, but I'm just the recruiter.
Ted Hallum: [00:27:24] And just something that I'll interject there is that once the hiring process is done and this person is brought on board, most of this work is usually done in teams, whether it's programming or data science and machine learning.
And if, that's the sort of person you are, you're not the kind of teammate that anybody wants. So this isn't advice just for getting through the interview or getting hired. This is advice for just how to generally be successful in the hiring process and for the job that comes after that. Yeah, absolutely.
Okay. So we've talked about the interview itself and, how to one of the key things to help you get to the interview, which is just being a decent human being. But you know, before that you have to get a phone screen and before you get a phone screen, you have to somehow get a recruiter's attention usually.
And so I think one of the main ways that normally happens and, we had mentioned earlier clearance job.com profiles, LinkedIn profiles, get hub profiles. Those are usually where recruiters going to see you and then become intrigued and reach out to you. So I think it's, it strikes me that it's extremely important that these be.
And they're basically your as a candidate, they're your marketing tools. That's how you market yourself. So I wondered if you had highlight what are some key things that people need to be doing like maybe the top three things that people should do with their, these profiles to make sure that they're optimally representing themselves and making it most likely that recruiters are going to reach out to them about an opportunity that they want.
Katie Keller: [00:29:09] Sure. Well, in terms of a resume, you really have to have those key words listed in order to be found through sourcing. I mean, right now we've been this way for the last, at least five years. It's a buyer's market. It's a candidates, market candidates are passively looking for the most part at this point.
And so recruiters are gonna find you through sourcing. So having those key words listed in your resume is the utmost important. Thing that you should be doing. And one thing that would actually put people at the top of my list is if they would formally apply through clearance jobs or through a company's website and then reaching out directly, whether it's through a social networking platform or whatever.
But reaching out and relaying that, Hey, I formally applied, this is how I meet the minimum requirements. That is something that would certainly put somebody to the top of my list. It's putting a face to the name. If they meet that clearance, if even if they didn't really meet the minimum years of experience asking whatever government customer, if they would lax on some things.
For example, if if somebody had three to four years of experience in data science, but the minimum requirement was five years. Let's say they were working on a certification. Let's say that they, I don't know, there's something in their background that pushed them over the edge. But if somebody reached out directly to me that's certainly something that would make somebody deserving of a phone screen.
Ted Hallum: [00:30:59] So I love that answer and that's actually a perfect segue, I think, to where my mind was going next. So a lot of times when people are job hunting, they'll go out to a lot of company websites and they'll submit through the company website. And I think the right term is an applicant tracking system. Yes.
Okay. So they'll put their application, their resume into the applicant tracking system and I've heard more people than I can count. So they feel like that those are a black hole. And so But I think you just gave us a great tactic for people that are doing that that if you've submitted into the applicant tracking system, your next step should then be to go and try and find the right or someone who looks like the right recruiter at that company where you've just bought and send them a message and say, Hey, I'm just reaching out to let you know, I've just submitted my application.
I'd love to have a phone call to discuss it further. Is that right?
Katie Keller: [00:31:53] Absolutely. Well, and so you may not like my answer on applicant tracking systems and I feel like a lot of recruiters don't, but it is certainly just my own opinion. So applicant tracking systems, they can be a black hole, but I think the problem is candidates.
Or just not researching what company they're actually applying to. For example people will talk about not making it through the applicant tracking system because a lot of ATS is right now or employing AI to see if people match the keywords and their resume. Well, the caveat there is that a lot of small businesses or small contractors just do not have the money to employ that kind of applicant tracking system.
So for example I've supported small to medium sized contractors up to 300 employees, but I mean the 65 employee contractor I supported the applicant tracking system was WordPress. It was people applying to the careers page, small contractors just do not have the influx of cash to employ a.
And ETS of that caliber, where it's like getting through that black hole, like you mentioned, or getting past the ATS. So what you need to do is research the employer that you're applying to. If it's a small contractor, there is certainly a recruiter looking at that application. So if you're trying to set yourself apart from the competition and that a recruiter is going to be looking at that resume, fluff it up, do something to set yourself apart because not every contractor in national security has again, the influx of cash to pay for an ETS that employee's AI.
Ted Hallum: [00:33:51] I think that's a super valuable insight because I do think that most people, when they think about these applicant tracking systems, they think that it's like, Just a cold, machine. They don't picture an actual human being on the other side.
And so they're, I think their mind is probably more in that space of if they are crafting their resume specific to the job at all. They're probably like trying to pack it with keywords or something like that. Just thinking that a machine is going to pick it apart. But I think it's very valuable for people to hear that know a lot of these small to midsize companies.
There is a real human being that's going to look at your resume. It needs to be on point. And, to that no, pun intended to that point. I think another big issue with people who find or feel like these are a black hole is probably because they're submitting the same exact app resume to every single job.
And I don't think that works very often. That's my guess. You, tell us you're the authority.
Katie Keller: [00:34:51] No. I mean, so if, unless you're applying to the same job at the same company over and over again, you really should be changing your resume. I mean I say that w take that with a grain of salt, because if you're applying to a data science role, that's going to be using Python.
And like the requirements are very minimal and vague, usually due to the RFP. Again, take that with a grain of salt, but you should be changing your resume for every role that you're applying to. And in terms of those keywords, I mean, match them where they do make sense. I mean, you should be going through a job description and you should be putting those keywords in your resume.
But again, only where they make sense. You don't want to be matching keywords. Willy nilly. And then you just, I mean, you just look silly but matching those keywords where they make sense. And if you don't meet all of the minimal requirements, I know that we'll get into this later. Still apply for something that you don't meet.
All the minimum requirements. If you're looking at a year or two years within those minimum requirements still match those keywords. And then yes, I do believe in cover letters. I'm sure everybody will kill me for this, but explaining that cover letter, why you would be a good fit depending on those personal projects that you've done, depending on those certifications that you're going after.
Long answer short that's. Those are my thoughts on that.
Ted Hallum: [00:36:23] Awesome. No, that's perfect. So I want to jump real quick. I remember last summer reading a piece that you wrote. And it was titled recruiter burns to avoid stoking through the job seeking process. That was a fantastic article. I have actually referenced that article and sent links to it, to multiple of my own mentees.
And whenever I tell them about the article, I referenced it as the seven deadly sins to avoid when interacting with recruiters. Those are words to live by for anybody who's currently in the job market. Who's on the phone a couple of times a day, trying to land their next opportunity.
So I, think it would be super valuable for our audience. If you could walk us through to the best that you remember those seven things that people need to make sure they don't do that are so that are. Unfortunately too common in the, in, I guess the average recruiter's experience,
Katie Keller: [00:37:20] you can tell if it's smiling so much, because those are my favorite articles to write.
Even though I'm reliving some of the more negative situations in recruiting it's just, it is fun to relive them. But so the first candidate that is recruiter burn that you really want to avoid is somebody who applies for anything and everything on a company's website. We know you're not that talented so just kind of stick to what you know, or stick to what you're qualified for.
But the, second is when a candidate reaches out. And I still get this, even though I'm no longer a recruiter on LinkedIn look at my resume and tell me what you think it's like who has time for that? It's just a candidate, not really being mindful of recruiters time, everybody as time constraints, but recruiters, especially like we don't have time to just look at your resume and tell you what we think a recruiters are just a little bit too busy for that.
But I also had candidates who would straight up laugh at me when it came to salary. Even though when, it comes to going after contracts, obviously contractors are trying to bid lowest price. Even if it's not an LPT a contract contractors, certainly do that. So, and where. The money gets slashed as people's salaries.
So even if I prefaced a conversation with the money, isn't great, or it looks like you're probably overqualified. If people laughed at me in the salary, that was just, that was rude. And it's not fun. I don't like telling you it's low salary. I don't enjoy it. I'm just trying to fill a role.
So that's certainly another one that many stories for that one. But the other one, which I know everybody likes to feel like they're a security clearance expert. Not quite true, but I would have candidates that would argue with me about their clearance, even though I looked them up in J pass.
And it said that their clearance was inactive. They hadn't held a security cleared role in years and they would still argue with me. So just arguing with a recruiter is like, Especially with something that is very cut and dry, they looked you up in J pass. You don't have an active security clearance. But I, would have plenty of candidates that would argue with me about things like that.
And I mean, other like kind of middle school things, like just not spelling my name rate or calling me serve Katie, Keller's my name. A lot of people called me, Kelly. I know it's easy to mix them together, but Hey Kelly how's, it going? My name's not Kelly. So just attention to detail as a candidate is something that you should always think about.
And then I know the last two I saved are my biggest pet peeves. People just changing preferences. Like salary when they're about to sign the offer. That is just dude, we talked about this in the initial phone screen. I know your salary preferences. Like there's only so much I can offer on this contract.
Why are you changing your preferences now after the government accepted? You said that it was one that was always frustrating to me. And I know recruiters are guilty of this as well, but ghosting that is just, I mean, especially with candidates, I know I had one. I have actually worked with him at my first contractor and I was trying to poach him because I mean, why not?
But we had gone on and on in this three month negotiation of like getting him accepted by the customer putting an offer together. He signed. Everything was good. And then the start date came and went, but he was just not answering his phone. And I was concerned because he was deployed at the time.
So I actually called his family. They didn't respond. And six months later he pops up on social media. Like nothing happened like, Hey Katie, how's it going? And I'm like, why did you go sneaky like that? So ghosting I'm sure every recruiter will say that's their biggest pet peeve as well.
Ted Hallum: [00:42:20] I feel like the overarching theme for me is that the golden rule applies, like when you're in the process of applying for a job and you're dealing with a recruiter. I, like we said earlier first, remember it they're a person. Not a machine. And then think about if you are the recruiter, how would you want to be interacted with like you, said, you don't want to be ghosted.
You want to have your name spelled, right? Because that's your identity. It kind of matters. Like all those things that you would want someone to do. If you were the recruiter trying to hire, that's how they want to be interacted with. And it's pretty much as simple as that.
So on a related note, I also remember another hilarious article that you wrote last Halloween. And that one was titled cleared, recruiting horror stories in defense hiring and. I say hilarious cause they are funny.
They're kind of serious too but, if you can remember some of those examples that you gave in that article, I thought that was fantastic. And for our listeners, you definitely don't want to be any of these creepy candidates. So perk up, pay attention and laugh, but don't do any of this stuff you're about to hear about.
Katie Keller: [00:43:39] Sure. Well so I'll, briefly touch on I know that there was one about a, which that one was actually from a good friend, Natalie, all the Varios. She owns her own boutique staffing agency. She had one about a witch but on a more serious note the, first has to do with candidates just Commenting on a recruiter's personal appearance and their photo on whatever professional networking site.
These platforms are not dating sites. I cannot stress that enough. It's just really icky when you turn the conversation from I'm submitting your resume to a government PM and someone says, Hey, you're beautiful. I wish we were married, just weird not the place for it.
Again, very icky. But the other that I really love to touch on has to do with companies that sponsored clearances. So again, even though the process is paid. Paid for by the government. It's not the contractor that pays for it. Companies are reluctant to do it because their ability is vacant.
As you go through the background investigation process, filling out your SF-86, all that jazz. But when a company finally does take a chance to sponsor somebody and they end up just ghosting, it's very frustrating. And it probably ruins chances for other folks that really do want to get sponsored and go through the process and end up working on a classified program.
But we actually just threw up a little video reminding folks about these security clearance hiring horror stories on our YouTube channel. So be sure to check all of those out.
Ted Hallum: [00:45:31] Okay. Awesome. Now at this point, Kate, I want to shift gears a little bit. I'm going to throw some common job seeker questions at you, but.
I'm going to throw a wrench in it for you. So this is a podcast. Obviously people have like very unique circumstances and cases, and we can't address every possible case here on the podcast. So I'm going to throw these questions at you and to simplify things just based on current talent, acquisition, best practices, I'm going to arbitrarily limit you to yes or no answers.
And I'm hoping that in that way, we can provide insight into some of these most common questions that's applicable to the, widest spectrum of our listeners. So the first one in most cases should a resume be limited to only one page.
Katie Keller: [00:46:29] No, absolutely not.
Ted Hallum: [00:46:33] Should candidates who possess some of their acquired skills and experience, but maybe not all of it still apply.
Katie Keller: [00:46:40] Yes.
Ted Hallum: [00:46:42] Should candidates follow up after an interview?
Katie Keller: [00:46:46] Absolutely.
Ted Hallum: [00:46:48] Should candidates include a cover letter with their resume? I think we got a hint earlier. Yeah.
Katie Keller: [00:46:53] I say yes. I say yes.
Ted Hallum: [00:46:56] Should candidates ever try to apply in person?
Katie Keller: [00:47:00] Nope. Nope no,
Ted Hallum: [00:47:03] Well, applying to a job in a different state, her to candidates, chances of getting hired,
Katie Keller: [00:47:09] no
Ted Hallum: [00:47:11] share their current or previous salary.
Katie Keller: [00:47:14] No, never. No.
Ted Hallum: [00:47:18] When asked about salary expectations, should candidates divulge their desired salary in the new position?
Yes.
And for this last one's going to be a little bit different, so you're not limited to yes or no, but you're limited to a percentage. Typically when a company makes a salary off offer to a candidate, how much more money is actually on the table? Percentage-wise
Katie Keller: [00:47:46] huh. So folks may be really surprised by this answer. I would say zero to 15%.
Ted Hallum: [00:47:57] Okay. So up to 15% that's that would be my cause if they, try to get 15% more, they can always be told, no, there's, that's not there.
Katie Keller: [00:48:08] Right. But I mean, Ted, depending on the circumstance, I mean, for example there were such hard to fill roles where 0% left on the table, sometimes negative, but there were other roles, for example, the counter-insurgency targeting program here in Charlottesville, where you had folks pumping out of the military where.
You could probably get 5,000 less than what was budgeted. So I mean, a lot of the times it was zero, depending on the location, sometimes it was 10 to 15% though.
Ted Hallum: [00:48:46] Sure, Cool. So that was a ton of insight that we tried to pack in there really quick. Because I know those are questions that a lot of people have.
And again the answer that Katie gave there may not be applicable in your specific case, but we did, I did try to pose all of those questions in the terms of most common typically. So if you, fall within the broadest swath, you just got a great yes or no answer there. And so if you were lying awake at night, trying to figure out if you should have a cover letter or if your resume was too long or too short, now maybe you have a little bit better feel about that.
So Katie to wrap up for our data science job seekers, who are in the cleared community that are listening to this podcast today, they'd love to get your top recommendations for podcasts or books that can help them to prepare, to get hired.
Katie Keller: [00:49:46] Well, my podcast, of course. So you got to follow our podcast, but the employment line it's a podcast it's completely a recruiter's take. And so I think that is just such valuable information for a candidate that's seeking. They are clearance jobs partners. No in D they do the employment line, which you can find on all podcast hosting sites.
And I believe they're even looking for clear data scientists right now. So be sure to check that one out we're on the rocks. They also have a podcast that is really just helpful for anybody who is transitioning out of the military or current military. But one of my favorites, Joe Byerly he does from the green notebook and I really love his podcasts because he takes such a different approach.
Like he interviews like he just interviewed the Lumineers, the band. I mean, he interviews so many different people, including military leaders, but it's really just all insightful conversations about leadership, mentorship. I feel like anybody would find that one helpful .
Ted Hallum: [00:51:07] Yeah, absolutely. I feel like from interacting with people in the veteran's data science and machine learning community, they are naturally inclined to have an insatiable appetite for resources, and you just gave us a handful of awesome resources.
So we all appreciate that. There are a couple of those that I'm excited about personally checking out the, green notebook in particular. That sounded really cool. I haven't, listened in on that one yet. Now at this point I feel like I would be remissed if I didn't just open up the floor and give you an opportunity to leave our listeners with one final piece of job hunting advice.
So if there's like a single golden nugget that you would like to share with our audience, I just want to give you the chance to have at it.
Katie Keller: [00:51:55] Yeah I, feel like I end every conversation with this. Anyone transitioning out of the military or just getting into data science. Just build her network of allies and resources.
Subscribe to groups like veterans and data science join virtual meetup groups that are related to the field joined military groups, even though they may not be necessarily like technical focused. It's just more people and more connections to help you in your career. So get a mentor or two or three these people are just in your corner and ready to help you be the best that you can be.
Ted Hallum: [00:52:40] I couldn't agree with that more. It can often be more about who than what you know perhaps you know, more than you ever realized. And I'll often say on this podcast, I think I ended up sending in almost every episode and I probably will continue to say it.
We all need a tribe in order to thrive and you can't find your tribe unless you're out networking, obviously veterans, data science and machine learning. If you're a veteran and you're in those fields, we are a great tribe for you. But the beautiful thing is you don't have to only be in one tribe.
There's. Yeah, there's a, there's the clearance jobs.com. So if you also have a security clearance, that's another tribe. And the more tribes you can be a part of that, like you said, the more that you network, it just ups your chances of being able to get that perfect opportunity, because they're going to be people out there who see your potential, who know you, and then who want to help you get plugged in to where you can be your best and be the, that make your best contribution to society.
So Katie, I really appreciate you coming on the show. There are going to be people I know that want to reach out to you for more information, maybe something you said inspired them, and they're just going to want, they're going to want, let you know that, or maybe they have a question that came up that we didn't address you on the show for that.
What are your preferred means of contact?
Katie Keller: [00:53:59] Anyone please, feel free to email me. I am happy to answer any questions, connect you with anyone. So katie.keller@clearancejobs.com.
Ted Hallum: [00:54:16] Awesome. And then also throughout the show underneath the video, Katie's LinkedIn name has been there.
I'm sure you're cool with people finding you and connecting with you there on LinkedIn. Katie. I was super excited to come on your show and I couldn't have been happier to return the favor and have you here on The Data Canteen, it's been awesome having you on the show.
You've provided a tremendous window into the cleared hiring atmosphere for data science and machine learning, and we couldn't be more appreciative. I hope we can have you on the show again in the future. And it's just been a great time. Thanks so much for this conversation.
Katie Keller: [00:54:53] Yeah, absolutely.
Ted Hallum: [00:54:54] Thank you for joining on this episode with Katie Keller as always until the next episode, I bet you clean data, low P values and Godspeed own your data journey.
clearedsecurity cleareddata sciencemachine learningveteransClearanceJobsKatie Keller
Ted Hallum is a Machine Learning Engineer at Octo, Founder of Veterans in Data Science & Machine Learning, and Host of The Data Canteen. He previously served in the U.S. Army’s Military Intelligence Corps and holds a Master of Science in Business Analytics from the College of William & Mary.